Things have gone too far.
I've been ruminating about so-called "Tznius" in our frum society for a few weeks now and it does not look good.
From Frum Burqas in Israel to banning wig stores on Coney Island to breaking the storefront of Dicci on 13th Ave.
Things have gone too far.
I do not think that the banning and destruction of women's accessories will make us better Jews or promote the idea of modesty.
The opposite is occurring.
We are taking the essence of femininity and giving the status of forbidden fruit.
Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan states in his book "Mikvah" that one reason that the concept of "Niddah" works is because the wife acquires the status of "Forbidden Fruit" while she is in Niddah.
As we all know, something forbidden is automatically more desirable.
This concept can work both ways. It can help preserve the freshness of marriage.
But, if taken to extremes, it can create the illusion that women are bad, "forbidden".
Are we going in the direction of Arabs, not allowing women to be seen, only to serve as sexual objects?
Do we want that?
In addition, the very idea of banning the above, gives people the idea that religious men are weak and can not control their desires.
Perhaps thats why the Rosh Yeshiva of Chaim Berlin banned the wig store near his school?
How do you feel about that, dear yeshiva boy, that your Rabbi considers you to be a weak-minded individual that at the mere look at a head-shot displayed in a window will run off and start banging babes?????
How sad and pathetic.
Ladies and Gentlemen, I've had enough.
Sunday, February 10, 2008
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41 comments:
I absolutely agree! What kind of twisted mentality is this, that implies that the beauty that Hashem has granted to women is a shameful thing? Jewish women are too smart and too acomplished to be treated this way.
Right on, Jacob. A very well-written post, too- perhaps one of your best yet.
you have a way with words!
B"H Even though you and I do not always agree on this issue, I do agree with much of what you write in the above.
As a side note, Judaism has been the middle path or balance between the Islamic (burka) and Western (bikini) extremes. I see it as being no different for this issue.
My issue is with increased fuzziness between gender roles, due to Jews adaption to so called "modernity."
I'm not saying that a woman should not go out and be a cardiac surgeon. Why not? If she's the best, then it's probably a misswah to go to her over some man who is mediocre.
What I am saying is that many Jews have become too comfortable with co-ed atmospheres and events, and that (aside from Tefillah), separate sex events and activities are often automatically considered "offensive" or "oppressive."
They shouldn't be, and it has nothing to do with any negative view of women, nor a man's inability to "keep it in his pants."
It's about our often separate gender roles, and our needs to pursue them, often separately.
(Translation: men and women shit-chatting often, and men allowing women to manipulate them, and believing that shalom bayith means giving your wife anything she wants, are NOT good and helpful things for Am Yisrael.)
"Dinai d'malchusoh dinai." It is against the law to break the windows of a store or to harrass the owner because you object to what he is selling. It puts whoever broke the window into the categories of hooligan and hood. And when they are caught and punished according to the law they broke, will some Jews yell "oppression" and "anti-semitism"? Suddenly they are going to become very ehrlich.
Re the statement made of a chasidishe man telling his wife not to shop there, I do believe that the correct loshon should be "discuss" with his wife why he feels the store is not one to support.
(Translation: men and women shit-chatting often, and men allowing women to manipulate them, and believing that shalom bayith means giving your wife anything she wants, are NOT good and helpful things for Am Yisrael.)
It's not helpful for Am Yisrael for a man to consider a wife as just another thing he owns either. There's a reason men are told to "leave your home and cleave to your wife." It's the best thing that is ever going to happen to them. Shalom bais only happens between two equal individuals, not between a man and a possession.
profk, although I agree with you on the breaking people's store windows, etc. as not a good idea, it's for different reasons. Dina malkhuth dina applies to taxes. (It's OK. Jews LOVE to throw that one around.)
The fact that Jews may incur the wrath of the goyim if it's a Jewish business, or being a hillul HaShem by public displays of such behavior in Hutz la'Aretz.
(It's not helpful for Am Yisrael for a man to consider a wife as just another thing he owns either.)
Whoever said anything about that? I didn't.
(There's a reason men are told to "leave your home and cleave to your wife." It's the best thing that is ever going to happen to them.)
Your opinion,...and you're entitled to it.
BTW, random pesuqim do not make for hallachic sources.
Random mishnayoth come a little closer: "A should not talk too much with women." Being in the same environment often, if nothing else, does help to facilitate this dictum.
(Shalom bais only happens between two equal individuals, not between a man and a possession.)
What's this whole possession thing about? It ain't coming from me.
Oh, now on your profile I see that you are female.
I'll leave up the hallachic stuff anyway. But I will say this, hallachic determination is not a woman's role.
There I said it.
Equal in what ways?
We're not equal, not because one is better than the other, but because we different roles baOlam haZeh.
Politically incorrect, but hallachicly true.
Dina malkhuth dina applies to taxes. (It's OK. Jews LOVE to throw that one around.)
Sorry but that is my Rav's opinion, that it applies to more than to just taxes. And he is not the only Rav to interpret this in this way. This woman is not paskening halacha, although strangely enough we are also told to listen to "Toras Imainu."
The "possession" comment was in reference to the article that Jacob linked to and the comments on that article.
"We're not equal, not because one is better than the other, but because we different roles baOlam haZeh." We are equally held of merit to the Ribboneh Shel Olam thus we are equal in his eyes. Yes we have different roles to play but we are equally important in playing those roles. When I hear this argument I am always reminded of the Orwell quote: "All animals are equal. Some animals are more equal than others." That's supposed to be sarcastic, not a real way of viewing the world.
I guess no one told Devorah that she shouldn't be making judgments based on halacha.
Devorah was a prophetess...different story all together....
Raizy: Methinks that perhaps the Christian view of celibacy is starting to permeate the thinking.
tnspr: Thanks dude!
Rafi: Gee, are you being sarcastic or really mean that?
BY: Your ideas are o.k. ..till a certain point.
By reinforcing the separation of sexes, the concept of "forbidden fruit" is strengthened.
People need to recognize that women are not sole objects of sex.
I believe that this is also a problem in secular society as well.
By over emphasizing the female body, we lose track of the true ideal of a woman- her inner beauty and strength that will never fade, even with age.
But also, what the crazies are trying to do is to blur away all aspects of femininity.
The best way is the middle way.
Prof K: I agree that man and woman are equal, one is not complete without the other.
In every marriage/relationship, one may lead and follow at the same time.
The ikkar is the harmony in the household.
"I've had enough"
with brooklyn or with orthodoxy?
With the direction that the self-centered ultra orthodox right wingers are pushing everyone into.
Brooklyn?
Ah. I found my shul, my little cave to hide in, now I can handle Brooklyn.
We do need a decent Ba'al Koreh as the old guy reading is KILLING us with his drawl.
U interested?
B"H
(By reinforcing the separation of sexes, the concept of "forbidden fruit" is strengthened.)
Maybe in Western psychology. I cannot emphasize enough that my point was not focusing on a sexual relationship.
Men were always out in the fields or in the store or in the beth midrash all day. Our mental, and quite a bit of our emotional needs were met by other men. Different emotional needs and physical needs were met by our wives.
"Forbidden fruit" was not as intensely present, as we were never allowed a taste of it, in the first place (Modern high schools, B'nei Aqiva, etc.)
This changed only as a result of Western influences, the maskilim, the erev rav.
The Mizrahi world was unscathed by this for much longer, and then also took a turn down this path, due to the maskilim and assimilationists.
"Western" and "modern" and "progress" do not always equal "good for the Jews."
I'm afraid that many of us have really missed the boat on this.
Devorah was a prophetess...different story all together....
Why does that matter? Prophesy has nothing to do with psak.
B"H
N: She was being provided with direct, divine guidance.
Others teach that she did not judge, rather she instructed the judges.
In any event, women involved in such matters are the exception not the rule. See Ramba"m Hil. Talmud Torah 1:1, 16
Jacob- right on! The ultra-religious world is just getting wackier and wackier- everything you said, plus things like "lets beat up women who sit in the wrong seat" on Israeli buses. Judaism didn't use to be like this- something's gone terribly wrong, and I'm afraid it's only going to get worse.
N: She was being provided with direct, divine guidance.
I don't understand what this means. Are you arguing that G-d told her directly what to paskin?
um, its assur to pasken from prophecy.
If she was a judge she did it based on her own intellect.
Jacob,
Excellent post ! What is going to be the future of our children ? By the way the wolf is reporting that the sheitel store "caved" and removed the pictures. Nebach.
As always right on the money Jacob. Tznius is supposed to be something that is serious.
Ben Yehudah: Quite the interesting point. If you care to write a noteworthy post on the matter, ill link you up.
Naftali & yoni: Welcome.
rr: Yup, its goin downhill.
Malach HaMovies: Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
married: I dont understand your comment "Tznius is supposed to be something that is serious".
"The break-in seems to rather be the work of Kanoyim..." is far from a substantiated record of truth. Has anyone seen a police report on the incident?
If it is true, however, these individuals seem not remember the events of November 9-10, 1938 in Germany.
I would think breaking the windows of Jewish-owned stores would be something we'd avoid.
Jacob - great post! I think those of us with precious daughters have an extra reason to be disturbed by this growing trend...
Great post - but practically, any ideas on how this shift can be combated, or at least mitigated?
I've been ruminating
I have been marinating- this steak is going to be awesome. ;)
I think in terms of how to turn the tide on this shift it may be a matter of enough Jews standing up for real Torath Mosheh and Halakhah and being an example. It also may be an issue of more Yeshivot having a more balanced and wide ranging curriculum that covers the entire Jewish knowledge from various communities. Maybe if enough Jews see the right kind of example they won't feel obligated to have to join up with wacko concepts and actions that bring bring a bad name to Yahaduth.
I am telling you that women will be banned sooner or later. First they will ban all things that were created in the name of tznius- make them wear burquas and then bam- they will bust out some house arrest bull shit and there goes the neighborhood.
Hey click my name for a link to my sheitle boycott video- had to make fun of it a little.
Does anybody of you know the Greek play of 'Lysistrate'? In a nutshell, Athens and Sparta were at war, and the women of both city-states decided they'd had enough with their husbands and sons being severely injured or even killed in war, at the very least being away from home for months, so the women went on a sex strike, which eventually brought about peace negotiations.
I'm not too sure if a sex strike would work as it could only work within a marriage with unbalanced dynamics, but the story does tell that depriving decision-makers of things they like (money, public esteem, free tchulent), may make them think.
Gilmour: Welcome to da bloggy! You're right, its not substantiated as of yet.
FrumHouse: Thanks, yes my daughter will be educated as to whats normal and and whats not...
B4S: Good question. Perhaps Ehav has the right idea.
Personally, I'm hoping tickets to outer space will become more affordable in my lifetime.
jack: Yo! did you do it in that special waffle sauce?
Ehav: Great ideas.
Hesh: Haha! You meshuggah!
I'll open a safehouse to all the hotties and you can come by and "console" them.
F-Cat: no free tchulent?!!?!?
Yeah, that'll open their eyes, real quick!
Banning a wig store near a Yeshiva?
What, the Rabbi thought the bochurim might try to get it on with a sheitl? I mean, I know that the sexual urge is strong and all that, but really, ad c'dei cach?
:)
Couple of things:
A- I totally agree with your post. I am interested in seeing more of a discussion between you and Ben Yehudah on the topic... What you wrote there was not a comprehensive debate...
B- As I posted on a different blog and as I often say: there is nothing like a good Jewish arguement. Ah!!! Love it!
gila: The key word here is "CD", lol.
mindy: me and da ben are not diametrically opposed. So its hard to get a fierce argument going.
oy...i got into a fight with my friend last night about this. To the point that she drove me to tears. She was like "you gotta listen to the Rebbeim, they know us better than ourselves"..so I ofcourse started an argument, and she called me a "non-beleiver" (not what drove me to tears, but that really irritated me), i mean, in what sense am I a non-beeliver? the fact that I feel we should make our own judgments, and that prefectly tznious store boycotts are innappropriate?
or that I feel that if we blindly follow rebbeim and not question them when they make decrees like this, we'll just end up buying indulgences? and we'll need a Martin Luther figure to remind us we need a personal relationship with Hashem
We need a Martin Kutehr figure in any case.
Frum Skeptic: Check out this post on how I deal with people like your friend:
http://jacobdajew.blogspot.com/2007/10/i-dont-have-title-for-this-post-yet.html
Mindy: "Kutehr" Wha?
Luther.
Luther.
Luther.
Luther!
:)
Haha..I figured as much..just futzing around :)
Got it.
thanks for the link. I just sent that to my friend...can't wait to see what she says
Frum Skeptic: Please let me know what she responds.
Jacob: She said "And I can quote Rav Pam"
so i told her she's totally missing the point
and she was like "No, I'm happy being a follower"
I have come to the conclusion that I need new friends!
Nah, thats just her nature. Some are sheep and some wolves.
GRRRR
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